Financial Infidelity with Shyloh Brown | How to Get Rich, Episodes 5 & 6

Reality Show Life Coach Podcast 

Covering: How to Get Rich, Episodes 5 & 6

Lynn Grogan (Host) & Rachelle Siebke (Guest Cohost) & Shyloh Brown (Special Guest)

Lynn Grogan [00:00:02]:

All right, welcome back to the Reality Show Life Coach podcast. Today we’re going to be talking about How to Get Rich episodes five and six. So with me today, I have co hosts for the series.

We have Rachelle Siebke. And then our special guest for this episode is Shyloh Brown. So, Shyloh, why don’t you go ahead and introduce yourself?

Shyloh Brown [00:00:19]:

I am so excited about this because I loved this series. It was so fun. But my name is Shyloh. I’m a certified life coach and I help moms up level their life and business. And I’m really big into no matter what the subject is, we just are connected to what we’re doing because I think as moms, we tend to run around like a chicken with our head cut off, whether we’re trying to build a business and be a mom or just be a mom. So that was me. And I love watching people feel just more connected with what they have going on in their lives. So that’s me just in a nutshell, business wise. And then I have been married to my husband for three and a half years. It’s a second marriage. So we have six adult kids between the two of us and two grandkids, so that keeps us full time busy. And on my spare time, I like to do things that don’t require a lot of thinking, like watching trashy television shows. And I love going to Lake Powell, so that’s a little bit of me in a nutshell.

Lynn Grogan [00:01:16]:

Amazing. And I just knew you would be a perfect guest for any of the shows I did because when you messaged me, you’re like, all enthusiasm, which I embrace. So thank you for being here. And Rachelle, thank you for being here, being back again, too.

Rachelle Siebke [00:01:32]:

Thanks for having me. I’m having so much fun with this series.

Lynn Grogan [00:01:35]:

It’s so good. Okay, so we’re going to get right into it because we have a lot to talk about. Just a quick show recap. We check in with Frank and Sophina, who we met last time, and we meet Drew, Millie and Christian and Sara and Reggie, and everything they bring to the table is so, so good. So I think we’re going to jump right in and we’re going to talk about Drew. Shyloh, you had so many good points here about Drew. I feel like we could talk about him whole episode. What was the first thing that stood out to you?

Shyloh Brown [00:02:03]:

So I loved Drew. I’ll just say that in case Drew ever by chance, listens to this podcast because I didn’t watch this series before. And so I just listened to my assigned episodes at the beginning, which the very first scene is Drew. And because I fell in love with him, I went back and binge watched this entire season. So there went my Saturday. But I love all of the vulnerability Drew had, and I loved one of the first things that he did, which was I was a little jaw to the floor when he mentioned he and his fiance have been together for six years, and his fiance had no idea where they were financially and had no idea kind of how much he made. 

And it was so interesting because he’s such a good guy, how we do things like that. Because if you don’t really get to know him, if there wasn’t a whole series that we got to know him immediately, you’re kind of like, what the how did he get himself into never telling the truth about his situation? And I love diving into it. So the first thought that came to me was, when you’re with a partner, is it right or wrong that they don’t know your money situation if you’re not married? And then at what point should you be disclosing that information? And I think for me, being on a second marriage, my first marriage was 20 something years, and I have grandkids, so I’m just dating myself without giving the age right there. So in other words, it was two old people getting married, and we’ve been through the wringer already once. Right. And I think it was probably within maybe within the first two dates. We had a good chemistry. And my husband said, hey, I just want to be very clear with you about basically where I am, because I’m worried that I want to make sure we’re a match financially. I want to make sure that there’s no strain between us, because before I basically fall completely in love with you, here’s how much I make and here’s the lifestyle. This is how I believe money should be spent. And I can see that you have this certain lifestyle, and I don’t know that I’m 100% matched. These are the ways I think we are. These are the ways I think we aren’t, and let’s just talk about it. And I was a little I remember distinctly being in the parking lot of a junior high school listening to this, thinking, this is really open. But it has been such a good basis for our relationship of dating someone and just not getting six years in and having the heaviness that Drew was experiencing, feeling like he had to keep all this a secret.

Lynn Grogan [00:04:34]:

Yeah. I think that’s the part that stood up for me, too, is I felt for him so much. Because if you just heard, like, oh, they didn’t discuss this, it might be a little easy to judge it, but when you see that he is so afraid of rejection. He’s so afraid of his partner learning about how he manages money two weeks before the wedding is like he’s worried that he’s going to be left behind by this information. I don’t know how Drew ended up on the show, but obviously he knew he needed some outside help to do this because he was so afraid. I don’t know Rachelle, what did you think about this?

Rachelle Siebke [00:05:13]:

I think in particular, it’s so interesting because I was also going from that same thing. Like, how has he not shared this yet? But what I will say, sitting here listening, I’m like, you know, though his partner also didn’t ask him directly. And so I think Drew said an answer. He’s sort of like, wringing his hands and he’s know. I will say like, yeah, I paid the credit card, meaning I paid the minimums. Knowing that he thinks that I mean, I paid in full. I do think it is up to both people to have the direct questions and the direct conversation. I think it’s so smart to have the conversation really early on. And at the same time, I think it depends on your situation. If you’re not planning on merging your finances and there’s other things that are more important to you, like perhaps like emotional or intellectual or other sorts of needs that are higher for you and you’re not planning on merging your finances, then maybe those priorities shift. But I was really surprised that they hadn’t had the discussions and they were getting married in two weeks. Because as part of getting married, that merging the finances happens whether you plan to or not. That is in place. So when we think about prenups or that sort of thing, there’s a lot of people who are like, I’m a little bit turned off about having a prenup conversation. But the thing is, you all have a prenup. The state just writes it for you. So I really think that that was a surprising part to me, that they were getting married in two weeks and they hadn’t had a discussion.

Lynn Grogan [00:07:16]:

Yeah, I thought that too. I mean, Shyloh, I loved hearing your story about how your husband was just totally upfront about it, and it’s just like, okay, all cards are on the table. It’s so funny. It’s like, this seems like such an important conversation. I’m like, I don’t even remember how my husband and I did. I do distinctly remember being out at dinner with a bunch of coaches. And I think Mark Butler, I don’t know if you’re familiar with him, was at the table, and he’s just like, your situation sounds complicated. Like, when we were still dating, he’s like, why don’t you just merge your finances? And it hadn’t even occurred to me before, but it was like it almost took, like, somebody else who had a sense of just different ways of doing things. And I was like, oh, yeah, that didn’t occur to me. But it’s like you almost live in your own complication until you hear other ways of doing things. And I think for Drew, he had gotten so far into this pattern of being this way with his partner, Mikey, when he says one thing, I know he’s assuming this, but I’m not lying but I’m saying this other thing. So he almost needed this intervention with Ramit to be like, okay, there’s a different way to do this, but I kind of need you to hold my hand while I go through this. And Ramit, to his credit, gives him some very tangible things to do right away, which I loved.

Shyloh Brown [00:08:38]:

Yeah, and I love that kind of talks about since this is a podcast about life coaches in their life, we see this all the time. And I actually think on your podcast last week, one of you said something about the way that money basically just is an example of so many other things in your relationship. And I don’t want to ruin it because I can’t remember because I watched the whole season, but it is just so beautiful to see that once you can be vulnerable in just this money situation, how much more vulnerable you could be in all kinds of situations in your relationship. So it’s so easy because money is we have a lot of shame in our society about money and where we are with money and our value when it comes to money. But it’s just basically like an object lesson for how you might feel in general about yourself. Or it can teach you how to if you can be honest about this, you can be honest about almost so many other things within your relationships. I think that’s important too.

Rachelle Siebke [00:09:41]:

I hear the term financial infidelity a lot too. And when we think about financial infidelity, we often think of it as like, well, somebody is hiding money in an affair or they’re hiding money away, like ready to leave. But really, financial infidelity begins with those small purchases of like, I bought this thing, but I know you wouldn’t agree, so I hid it from you. Or I carry a statement on my credit card balance, but I know that you’ll judge me, so I’m not going to tell you. And I do agree. Shyloh when you can’t be open and upfront about the like, so many other things have to be hidden because you can’t talk about them.

Shyloh Brown [00:10:23]:

I noticed too, with Drew, and what I loved about him is because you could I guess maybe I don’t know if every viewer could, but as a coach you could very visually see that he was definitely in flight. So we hear about in trauma, fight, Flight or freeze and the ways that we act when our nervous system is not balanced or not regulated. And he was just such a classic case of flight to the point where he didn’t even know his own financial situation. So it wasn’t even to the point of him only just holding a secret from his partner. He himself was starting to completely disconnect from his own situation out of a protection mechanism, which is even more deeper of a hole to get yourself into because now you’re not even aware of what’s going on in your own life, let alone trying to kind of not include your partner in on it.

Rachelle Siebke [00:11:19]:

So interesting. I just want to say too, when you bring up trauma responses, what I’m thinking of is I almost see him fawning, right. Even in the question, did you pay off the credit card in full? And he’s like, I know what you want me to say is yes. So I’m going to say yes because I did make a payment. I know that’s not what you’re asking me, but I know that’s what you want me to say.

Shyloh Brown [00:11:42]:

We all know how heavy that feels. That feels so heavy. You could just tell that his core being isn’t like he was not comfortable becoming. He became basically a liar. And you could tell that was not who he is really, as a human, and he was not comfortable with who he had kind of forced himself into a corner of becoming. And I think sometimes we do that for ourselves. We get ourselves in these situations, and then we become this person that’s just never who we really were. And I even was saying the other day in a conversation with some other friends that they’re not coaches. And I was like, I’m no longer judgmental at all because from hours and hours of coaching other people, what I’ve noticed is most people, maybe the people I attract, but most people want to be good and they want to do the right thing. It’s of the lens, of whatever they got themselves into. Sometimes dissecting that is what gets them back to where their home is, where their core personality is. It’s about unwinding some of these things that we do that are not really us. In order to, I think in his case, even try and save his relationship. I think his intent was to be desirable and to have his person love him. And it’s just interesting how it’s very obvious to the outsider it’s not the way to do it, but I can see his insides. He just got himself into a situation by not feeling confident in who he was to the core.

Lynn Grogan [00:13:15]:

Yeah, you can see and hopefully he could get to the place where he could watch this and just go, oh, of course, I responded this way of being super protective with myself. We actually see this a lot with most of the cast members on here. Different fight, flight, freeze, fawn response. And that’s how we know that the money isn’t just about the numbers, that it’s like this deeply emotional thing for us because we do have such a response and one person can say one thing. Drew’s fiance can just be like, what? What’s going on with this credit card? I thought you had paid this off. And we can see in his response just like, oh, he shrinks down. So any access that he would have to a helpful response or a way to explain himself is suddenly, like, shrunken down because he’s having this response to hearing that, and it makes it really hard to move forward if that’s the way he’s responding each time. So I wonder what Drew’s response was to even watching this, if he’s able to see it, because I could also see somebody watching this back and being in full judgment, like, why did I let it get to that? Like, well, of course you were just trying to protect yourself and your relationship. It’s just that moving forward, this doesn’t necessarily help you have the healthy relationship that you want.

Shyloh Brown [00:14:31]:

Yeah, I’m curious because it was kind of well, it became, like, the title or the description of the whole episode, probably because it’s hilarious. But while we’re talking about these, like, he got himself buried in this scenario, what are your opinions of why he thought his dog’s checking account was more important than even thinking about it? Seems like I know that they talked about retirement, but it was even about paying back some of that money. It was like he paid that right off the bat and then ignored a lot of other things. And I think there’s something to it. And I’m like, Why? Because the dog’s checking account feels really silly if, you’re know, in his mind, I’m wondering what his motive was there.

Lynn Grogan [00:15:19]:

What do you think, Rachelle?

Rachelle Siebke [00:15:21]:

I actually think that it is a case scenario in which because they talked about how much money his partner makes and how much money Drew makes. Right. And Drew said, I’m lucky if I make $50 a day. I think it seemed to me like the pet checking account was a joint checking account that they both contribute to. And I think that Drew really highly values his partner, and he wants to contribute equally even though he doesn’t make an equal income. And so I think that, again, really falls back to both of them, that they haven’t had a discussion about how to split the finances when they make such an uneven income. Because I see this with my clients a lot, too, where I don’t think it’s right or wrong to keep your money together or keep it separate. I used to be like a stickler about everybody should keep their money together because blah, blah, blah. It’s like good communication, good partnership skills. I actually know a lot of people who do it really well. And again, it really comes down to, why are you doing it that way? Do you know your cash flow? Do you know why you’re doing it? Do you like those reasons? And the cases I see most often that it gets really wonky is when one partner makes less than the other and they’re not really comfortable sharing. Like, I can’t contribute this lifestyle that you have, and then it just sort of off to the races from there. Right. It’s kind of hard to catch up with. So that was my opinion about the pet checking account. How about you, Lynn?

Lynn Grogan [00:17:07]:

I thought something similar. I think that Drew wants to be somebody who can contribute equally to the Pet savings account. I think he liked what he saw there, and probably in talking about it, they felt maybe very responsible and we’ve got this together. Maybe that’s how Mikey manages his money. Maybe he has different buckets for different things. And because they share the dog together, we’re doing this together. And I just get a sense that, yeah, Drew wants to be a part of it. He wants to be on a team with Mikey, and this is how Mikey’s offering it. And he doesn’t want to tell Mikey, though, like, hey, I can’t contribute the same as you. So, Rachelle, what you’re saying, I suspect, is maybe how that came about. And I can see Ramit’s position on this. Like, man, you do this and that, but it’s like, well, that also suggests that we can have conversations with our partners about our futures and the money we make and everything, and he’s not comfortable with that. So, yeah, that would be my guess, is that he just really wants to be somebody who can contribute to the household in that.

Rachelle Siebke [00:18:07]:

I just wanted to say I thought one of the sweetest things that Drew said was, like, I would like a sugar daddy.

Shyloh Brown [00:18:14]:

Right?

Rachelle Siebke [00:18:15]:

Because you can tell also, he really likes a fun, big lifestyle and so he know, oh, I would like a sugar daddy, but not Mikey. Like, Mikey is my partner. And I just thought that was so telling of so much of the situation that was happening.

Shyloh Brown [00:18:31]:

I mean, not specific to the dog checking account, but it did remind me of very similar situations that anyone who doesn’t even have a dog might where it’s like the dog checking account was this little low hanging fruit that felt super doable to him. He could probably somehow afford it and then show his partner that he was involved, all those little things. But sometimes I think what we do when we have big problems is we find one low thing that might not be the most rational thing to do in order to protect ourselves from dealing with the big thing. So in general in life, I just think about a lot of times it’s ruminating on we find ourselves spinning on a thought so we can ignore the big, big problem. So it’s like, I’m just going to deposit little kinds of money in a ridiculous thing called a dog’s checking account that’s kind of equivalent to, like, I’m going to spin and spin and spin on my hatred for dog biscuits, instead of talking about what really is going on in my life. And I feel like we do that. It’s just human nature. It’s so funny. I’m sure once Drew got out of it, he was like, oh, my gosh, why didn’t I just pay a little more my credit card bill for this checking account. But that was just something that was know, because maybe it started from zero versus, like, I got to figure out how to chip away at five. Totally. Yeah. So it’s interesting.

Lynn Grogan [00:19:52]:

The other thing that stood out for me is and I think Rachelle, you had written it here is I did not know what Ramit was saying about credit cards, that if you lose something or if it breaks, that you can ask your credit card to, like, give you that credit back. I had no I idea. Shyloh, did you know about this?

Shyloh Brown [00:20:13]:

I did only because on Christmas morning, my daughter broke an ipod back in the day and American Express paid for it to get replaced. It was like a three month insurance or something I got from the purchase. But Apple told me at the time, Where did you put it on? And so that’s how I knew.

Rachelle Siebke [00:20:32]:

Yeah. Wow, that’s so good. That Apple, first of all, good on Apple going out of their way to tell you that. Second of all, I did know about it. I do think it’s one of those things we want to be careful about, because I think sometimes people will say, oh, I only use credit cards. I never use debit cards because they don’t have the same protection. So I would say debit cards also have some of the same protections. What we want to be careful about in making decisions to use credit cards because of their benefits is we want to make sure that we know credit card companies are offering these things to get us addicted to using them. They’re hoping that we’re going to pay the minimum and that it’s going to cost us over time that they’re going to make the benefit back. Like it’s for their benefit. But if you’re using a credit card and you’re using it responsibly and you’re paying it off, or even if you’re not, if you end up in a situation like this and the benefit is available to you, you might as well use it. But I really love that, again, in the same way that Remy had walked Safina through, like, okay, I want you to write this email and talk to your HSA or your HOA about what they’re not repairing. He gave the same homework to Drew, which was like, call them and see what they will do. And I love the scene, like Drew’s pouring a drink. Like, I think we have all felt that way, being on the phone with customer support for the credit card or a bank or whatever. I really believe that perseverance is such an important skill when we think about our finances. Can you take the time to dot your I’s and cross your T’s and no, we don’t want to do it about little tiny things. And like you were saying, Shyloh, like, fixate on the wrong thing. But there is so much to be said about being able to show up consistently and really persist through those loopholes that are sort of put in place, really be a gotcha.

Lynn Grogan [00:22:49]:

Yeah. And actually to all of this is being able to do that also suggests so that you have an openness and a willingness to look. Because that was one of the things with, I think almost everybody. This one, they’re just like, I don’t want to look. So it’s like we’re not going to look. We’re not going to get those extra benefits. Especially if you just assume ahead of time like, well, this isn’t going to work anyway, or this isn’t for me. So I think that’s also an empowering thing too is that I don’t know if they ever came back around and said whether or not he got that money back. But it’s almost like just even having that quick win might help him start to build his confidence to look at other things. But yeah, what a cool benefit and I am tucking that away for later.

Shyloh Brown [00:23:35]:

I know rental cars, too, have extra insurance if you put them on certain cards. I also think it shows one thing that came to my mind that has nothing like you can tell now, my mind goes like opposite direction of what we’re looking at. But when I was watching it, I thought to myself, the other thing that’s interesting is when we’ve got ourselves so buried in shame and our nervous system is so activated, everything closes, our eye view kind of closes and we think that we don’t know anything. And that is very normal. In fact, that sometimes to me is a clue that I am in that state is when I start to realize I think I know nothing and I know I’ve got to know something. Him being getting in this state where he’s kind of like just not paying attention. He’s obviously very activated by this. His mind was not able to even conceive creative ideas to get out of his situation, which this is a very creative idea, but that’s also how we are with almost anything in life is like if we let ourselves get into these situations or not let ourselves that’s a terrible way to put it. But if we are in these situations where we’re activated, where we like for whatever reason and we’ve been very compassionate about why Drew’s in his situation, I have a lot of compassion for why people might do things that don’t make a lot of sense to people. If we can just clue in that we are in that place and help to calm ourselves down and become more mindful, then we can get more creative. And this is just like symbolic of that, like credit card benefits. Maybe if he wasn’t so afraid of seeing his credit card balance, maybe like for me, I log in to American Express and I know my credit card balance because I’m not afraid of it. But right there on the home page. It does tell me, like, you can click and opt in on lots of benefits and he might have known, he might have gotten a little creative, right, if he wasn’t avoiding the whole thing.

Rachelle Siebke [00:25:31]:

That’s such a good point. And I think the way that we think about ourselves when it comes to money, right? So if we think we’re smart and savvy with money, we’re more likely to be the ones who are showing up with solutions. If we think we’re just bad with it and we don’t understand it and we’re not good with math and we can’t trust ourselves, we’re going to not even see those creative solutions. But I was thinking that, too, because in this instance, he was saying, I’m lucky if I make $50 a day. And those shoes were $60 and he broke them on the job, right?

Shyloh Brown [00:26:09]:

Yeah.

Rachelle Siebke [00:26:10]:

And he was just, like, going to take it for a loss. So I love that Ramit offered that. Like, hey, just try it. See what happens. Yeah, I think that’s such an interesting point, but I have a client who had applied for some financial assistance, and when she did that, she wrote me and was like, oh, I had to fill out these forms, and I got this much money towards my child’s education, private school. And she was like, So I didn’t get a client, but I did. It was kind of like I was right. So I love the idea, too, of when you’re using benefits and assistance that’s available to you, thinking of it, it’s also creating money. We don’t have to be so one sided about, do we create money only if an employer gives it to us or if we make a sale. But also, what are the other ways that we can create money?

Lynn Grogan [00:27:15]:

Yeah, I love that. I have started having lots of thoughts about Frank. Are we ready to move on to Frank? Does anybody have any last thoughts about Drew?

Shyloh Brown [00:27:24]:

The last thing about Drew that I loved is what you said, Lynn, so I don’t want to take it, but about the just you had mentioned how Ramit told him, think about how you feel on the stage and how confident you feel on the stage and bring that to your relationship with money. So I teach yoga on the side, like, not very much anymore, because I’ve gotten busier, but one thing that I talk a lot about is, like, feeling emotions. And sometimes I’ll tell people, turn on a happy song, generate that feeling. Now. Switch your thought into the moment that you’re not feeling good about. There was no part of Drew that felt he could like, if you were to say, just feel confident about money, he would be like, I don’t even know what that feels like. His mind would just offer him zero. I love how Ramit said, take that feeling that you feel on that stage. Feel it. Like, fill it in your body because he’s experienced it. Now transport that for just even if it’s a moment, into filling how you feel about money. And we can do that. We can do that with other things. I mean, visualization is just so important. We can take how just if we can’t say, like, if we can’t feel what we want to feel in the moment with that moment, think of a time you did feel it, like, generate it in your body and then just transplant it over. And even if it’s for 1 second, you’re teaching your body it can be there for a moment, and then over time, it’ll expand. I mean, I’ve watched it happen so many times with people, and I think it helps us to process emotions because sometimes we talk about that all the time. Just fill your emotions, and people are like, I have no idea what you’re talking about, because the feeling of confidence has never, ever been associated with money for me. So how am I supposed to feel that when in reality, he does have a lot of places he’s been confident. I mean, like, he was way confident on stage. And so I don’t know. I just think that that tool is super important. And I love that you brought that up, Lynn, because I think that can change someone’s life if they can learn how to try and change the way.

Lynn Grogan [00:29:35]:

I’m so glad you took that point because you brought up some good things. Totally. We were watching this back for the second time, and Drew is finishing up his show. He’s very sweaty. We also noticed he had a lot of snot coming out of his nose, and he is throwing his arm around Ramit. If that is not the picture of confidence I have yet to see it. But absolutely, like, if you can even just have a little bit of it and bring it over, you’re like, okay, maybe this is possible for me. We’re not asking Drew or any of these other people to go to being, like, a genius with money. It’s just having this openness to maybe I can learn a little bit more about this. Maybe this is for me instead of not for me. And so I love that he could borrow that from another place. It warms my heart.

Shyloh Brown [00:30:20]:

Yeah, I love that idea, and I love that it was a tool that can be used anytime, anywhere, like, any situation, really.

Lynn Grogan [00:30:30]:

Rachelle, you look like you’re dying to say something, but you were muted.

Rachelle Siebke [00:30:33]:

No, I’m just saying it was so good. I didn’t want to keep going on it because I know we’re moving on to Frank, but I also use that reference. I call it with my clients when they say, oh, I did this thing over here. I’m like, amazing. Now, how can you take that Jenga block and move it over to your right? Like, how can you use that over here as well?

Lynn Grogan [00:30:56]:

Absolutely beautiful. Okay, Frank. Oh, there’s so many things about Frank.

Shyloh Brown [00:31:01]:

I was like, wow, I got so lucky. These are the best episodes you did.

Lynn Grogan [00:31:06]:

And I watched Frank on The Circle, and he was so good over there. And so it was like a delight to see him show up here. I mean, oh, gosh. Who feels strongly about any of one of these topics? Just throw it out there.

Lynn Grogan [00:31:20]:

Well, the identity thing I think was really good. Him having a windfall of money. I think that could happen to any of us at any point in our life. Inheritance, weddings, from a I mean, to me, the thing that stood out immediately mean exactly what we were talking about with Drew. Same with Frank is like, if you don’t have an identity around somebody and believe that you are somebody that has money, keeps money, earns money, deserves money, that was a big thing that came up with Frank. This money will come into your life. And it’s not like you get this windfall of money and suddenly like, poof, now you’re amazing with it. You’re just going to do the same thing you’ve always done, take the same actions with money. It’s just more now it’s just more money. And this is like it was such an interesting part when they bring that up. Frank is sitting with I don’t remember the name of this project runaway Winner. And they both talked about the same thing, about having this windfall of money and just feeling overwhelmed. People are like, oh, you must feel delighted you made so much money. He’s like, I feel overwhelmed by it. What did you guys think about this scene?

Shyloh Brown [00:32:22]:

I think it really plays into if you go backwards, it really plays into two different directions. It plays into you starting without money, and maybe you don’t get a windfall of money, and you believe that everything is going to be amazing as soon as you have money. And then you get there and you’re like, this is not amazing. And then you’re severely depressed and confused and lost. And then also when you get the windfall of money, I think it can be harmful if you haven’t worked on your identity, because then you have this windfall of money and you don’t know who you are with it. And I think, too, I think I even mentioned that I feel like sometimes slow and steady wins the race because doing that hard work, that’s why I enjoy the work that it takes to get to where you want to go. And in this case, with money, because I feel like it’s more sustainable. You’re working on developing your identity. You’re working on developing things as they go. We see this with money, but we see this in, like and I don’t want to say anything. We see this, though, with people that will get like gastric bypass surgery and lose the weight but not work on the mindset part and then gain it back plus some or. We see this with people with money for sure, but we see this with all kinds of things in a life where we almost can end up in the net net even less than we had to start with because we never fixed who we are inside. We never took that time to look towards ourselves. There’s no external answer that’s going to just be the end all, be all for us. I don’t think. If anyone knows it, I would love to see it just to make it personal. When I went through my divorce, I went from a 12,000 square foot home to a two bedroom apartment and my daughter and I had to share a room. She was 16 years old and we shared a bedroom because I didn’t know exactly where it was going to come to be able to afford a three bedroom apartment. And granted in my situation that was temporary but some of my best moments are because my daughter was 16 and could you imagine the poor girl, that’s the worst experience for a 16 year old. And yet for us, it was the best. And it was the biggest lesson to me that made me realize I just remember the first day they came and I was standing at the top because I was on the third floor and being like, well, come up all these stairs to our apartment. That is going to be as big as your last bedroom. But we made it a home and it was probably one of the best times of my life because it proved to me I would never want to do it again. But it proved to me that money truly is not everything and things, anything external is truly never going to make me happy. And ironically, right before that, the reason I realized I wasn’t happy is because I was really unhappy with what I look like. So I decided to lose a whole bunch of weight because I thought, well surely if I get to my ideal weight I will be a happy person. I got to my ideal weight and I was not any happy than prior and so I guess I had to learn the hard way and so this kind of hit me hard because I thought I’ve tried that both times. I didn’t trust anybody’s motivational thought on instagram that they put on there. I had to try it for myself and maybe that was a good thing because I realized we are whole exactly as we are. There is no external anything that’s going to change that. We’re whole with or without money. We’re whole with or without weight. We’re whole with or without friends. We’re whole as we are. I just wanted to give him a big hug and just tell him like you are enough. You don’t have to have all this. It’s okay. But that’s how I felt a little.

Rachelle Siebke [00:36:13]:

Thank you for sharing that. I think that’s such an important thing. Like, we learn so much about ourselves when we show up and go through the thing that we’re going through. So I think that’s really beautiful. Thank you for sharing that.

Lynn Grogan [00:36:30]:

Yeah, it seemed like even when you were saying that, it almost goes both ways. Like, you could have gone from the two bedroom apartment to the 12,000 square foot home and then suddenly find yourself like, holy cow, who am I in this home? And vice versa. And it’s just like, yeah, you see Frank, like, who am I with this money? And feeling so almost uncomfortable with it. And while it does provide him things, it’s also, I think there’s a huge fear of not having it and losing it and not putting it to good use, but not knowing what “good use” would mean for him. Because he loves brunch and he loves going on vacation and he loves Gucci and he loves getting his nails done and all that stuff that makes his life feel rich to him. But then there’s also something that’s missing for him in terms of, but how do I make this last longer? And how do I invest in my future? And that part I don’t know if he’s given much thought to what it means to have a life that goes beyond the next year because it seems like he thinks more. Six months to a year versus lifelong.

Shyloh Brown [00:37:41]:

I’m curious, too, since, Rachelle, you are a money coach, right? So you coach on and, like, I’m actually asking this as a like, no judgment, but his spending habits in comparison to his actual what is it? Spending within your means or whatever, they’re just so not together. They’re not at all on the same plane. Like, he’s spending all of these name brand things and living a luxurious life, but not earning the money to live it. And I’m just wondering, is that a common thing? What could heal that? Why is there such a big gap? You know what I mean? There’s something to be said about thinking, oh, if I just believe, maybe I’ll manifest right. And then there’s something to be said about why is there such a huge disconnect with what he’s spending and doing? And he talked about being spoiled, but I’m wondering. I’m sure you see this, and I would love to see, actually opinion.

Rachelle Siebke [00:38:43]:

Yeah, I’m so glad you asked that. I think what’s common is the thought process less so that there’s actually something, like, mismatch, but people often think that they’re doing it wrong even when they’re doing it right. So a lot of times, the biggest shift that I can offer my clients is, like, you get to spend your money on whatever you want to spend it on and spend it fully there where you want to and make the adjustments in other places. So that’s one thing. But the thing that I think is going on with Frank in particular, he does say, I lost my parents early, and somebody else raised me, and they gave me the money that I was receiving to shop to make me feel better. So I would guess that what’s happening for him is spending is the way that he meets his emotions, and when he’s not able to feel full and complete and fulfilled on his own, and is trying to use spending and experiences to fill that in. Again, I never think there’s anything wrong with spending or taking the experiences, but I just like to offer add in that internal validation before you go looking for the external happiness from the spending. And I think that’s just a part that he’s missing. What do you think, Lynn?

Lynn Grogan [00:40:24]:

Yeah, I think that’s the part. I think there is maybe some healing around his teens, twentys and what the stuff was looking to fill. And I think to some extent, he realizes it, when I need comfort, I go and spend. He has the awareness there, and it’s now like, okay, but what do I do with this? And I think it’s obviously going to be an ongoing thing. He reveals in the episode that he is quitting his job to become an entrepreneur and trying to figure that I think, you know, three of us can speak to this. It’s like owning your own business, becoming an entrepreneur brings up a lot of stuff for you. I think, especially for Frank, is that his brand is himself. He’s putting himself out there on a regular basis, which can be a very hard thing. And so I think he has awareness. But I think that next part is realizing that you could have any amount of money in the world, and you could spend it on any number of Gucci slippers, and it’s not going to make you feel better for more than maybe 20 minutes and taking it from there.

Shyloh Brown [00:41:36]:

That’s so interesting is, as you guys say, that it reminds me of so often, it helps us to understand where our filter of what love looks like to us, where that originated. So, I mean, not to get too deep, but if contention was what you had a lot of when you were younger, and that might have been what feels like love, like dramatic contention, or if it’s, like, good, healthy version of love? Or is it like buying a gift for me is how someone showed me love? Or all of those different things? It’s so good to figure that out and be mindful of it, because that mindfulness will then help you to plant yourself in reality of like, do I want to keep up this story? Of, like, this is what it’s supposed to be for me? Or do I want to change that for myself and for future generations? And that comes up a lot with parenting. When I’m parenting people, when I’m parenting people, when I’m talking to people about parenting it’s like what were your examples of love as a child? Do you want to keep that for your children or do you want to investigate that and make a change? And then when you see yourself doing habits that might be attached to your version of what love might have looked like, do you want to tweak that a little? So when you said that makes so much sense that the spending and the Gucci and the name brands, that is what he probably formed as a version of love, of what it looks like for him.

Lynn Grogan [00:43:06]:

Absolutely. I mean mine definitely has been food and I think this is where coaching has been so helpful and I’ve coached many, many people on weight loss is just like you don’t necessarily get to the point where you don’t have the urge or the thought in your head that says go buy something, go eat something. But when the dial is turned up on that and that voice is louder, that urge is louder, it’s just an indication that something’s going on in your life know? And maybe that’s where Frank could get to with this. It’s just like, oh, I have the urge to go shopping. Oh, I’m knee deep on Amazon. I wonder what’s going on for me versus OK now let’s click and buy. And that might be the next step for someone like him or somebody’s listening to this and they relate to that.

Shyloh Brown [00:43:54]:

I love that.

Rachelle Siebke [00:43:55]:

The other two things I want to touch on quickly around Frank. I really love that Ramit suggests having a plan for a windfall. I think everybody should always have a plan for a windfall on bat, right? It’s like you’re on deck because this is one of the things that I would coach people to do if they were getting a raise before they get their first paycheck, where it’s going to go up. Think about what do I want my life to look and feel like? How can I reverse engineer that, right? Like where do I want this money to go and how can I make a plan for it before I get it the first time. You can do it after a while. But the thing is there’s lifestyle creep and once you get used to spending the money it’s harder to change it and direct it to an auto saving plan. I love that Ramit’s plan is very doable. It’s like 50% save and 50% invest and 50% spend on guilt free. So I think your plan can be anything but I think it’s really interesting. I bet you if you ask anybody what their plan is not just like what would you do if you won the lottery but do you have a system, do you have a routine that you use for a windfall? I bet you there’s nobody that you know that has that, and yet it’s the number one thing that we’re all sort of counting on. It’s like, if I had enough money, right? We’re all sort of like, I’ll take care of my money if I win the lottery and if I get an inheritance and if I want a settlement or if I won a game show. And the truth is, if you don’t have a plan or a system in place for your everyday money that’s coming in, the same thing is going to happen with the windfall, and it’s so unlikely that there’s going to be a windfall. So the much better plan is to look at how you want your life to look and feel right now and figure out how you can have more of that with the money you already have and then make a plan for the rest of the money as it’s coming in. So that’s one thing I really wanted to talk about with Frank and the plan. And the other thing that I wanted to talk about with Frank is role models. I love that they introduced a role model for him in this very specific case. But I also want to talk on how many of us have good role models in our life, because most of us do not. Most of us, if we have a role model for money, it either wasn’t a role model that was doing what needed to be done with money, or it could be they are good with money, what people would consider, but they’re also stingy and mean and greedy and make everybody around them feel terrible. I have so many clients that carry a lot of shame and guilt about not being good with money, and they also strongly reject being good with money because they think it means that they have to be stingy and deprive themselves. And so what I really want to offer everybody and reach out to me if you want to explore this, because it’s a fascinating concept that I’m exploring right now. But if you don’t have a role model with money, what’s the alter ego that you would create? What are the metrics that you want to decide is good with money? Because oftentimes it’s not. I’m stingy and I’m cheap and I save everything. What good is that if you don’t have the relationships and the fulfillment in your life? And so I really just like to push back on that when I’m working with my clients. Like, yeah, you say that that person’s good with money, but you feel terrible around them. So what would be good with money? What do you want to decide is good with money?

Lynn Grogan [00:48:15]:

Oh, man, this was such a good question. I’m, like, spinning in my head. I was like, do we have good role models? We have a set of friends and we met over the last year. And I would say that looking at them, I would say they live a rich life, and I get a sense that they’re good with money. They’re open enough about talking about it, but it’s one of the first times in my life where I feel like there was somebody in my sphere where I looked at them and I was like, that seems healthy, amazing. And so you bring that up, and I was like, wow, I am 42 going on 43. And that’s maybe the first time I have witnessed what I think is healthy. When I look at people’s relationship with money.

Shyloh Brown [00:49:00]:

I think I’m still looking. So, yeah, it is a good question.

Lynn Grogan [00:49:06]:

I’d say you have one on this call here with Rachelle. We all do.

Rachelle Siebke [00:49:09]:

Definitely. Well, and same thing for me, right? So as I started dating again recently, I was thinking, what is a good relationship? And I was thinking, I don’t know that I have any relationships in my personal life that I look to as role models for good relationships. I have lots of people in my life that have been married for a long time, but they’re not necessarily relationships that I want to emulate. And so this is a discussion that we had, too, like, what do we want to consider is a good relationship? So sometimes we just have to admit there’s not people in our lives that are maybe doing the things that we would consider good. And that that still doesn’t mean that it’s not for us. We get to choose. We get to decide. Especially when there’s two people who are doing their work, who are showing up and willing to do that work, of figuring out what is good, what feels good for me, what are my values, what can I commit to, how does this benefit me? How does this benefit you?

Lynn Grogan [00:50:19]:

Yeah. And I think what you’re bringing up is where I’m thinking about this is like, oh, once you realize that you don’t maybe have the best role model, you start looking for, like and I love that you’re talking about that with your partner, Rachelle. It’s just like, oh, what do we think good looks like? And not from a judgmental, like, what’s right, what’s wrong, but just, like, what would feel good to us? I mean, I really think at the end of day, this is what Ramit is getting to, is that what does the rich life look like? What feels good to you? I think we can have that in so many areas of our can just I get a sense now, like, I’m pinging. I’m just like, what are all my good role models and all my little spaces around in my life?

Lynn Grogan [00:51:01]:

Thanks, Rachelle. That’s such a good point.

Shyloh Brown [00:51:03]:

I love that, too.

Lynn Grogan [00:51:05]:

Yeah. Okay, so we are wrapping things up, and as I predicted, there was so much more to talk about than we had time for. I want to give both of you a chance for one last thought. So, Shyloh, did you want to go first with just, like, one last thought on watching this and your experience.

Shyloh Brown [00:51:21]:

Okay, so the very last scene that I thought was interesting is that Frank was on vacation, over budget, but also telling Ramit he was over budget on vacation. He knew he shouldn’t have been, and he did it anyway. And I feel like sometimes it’s okay. He’s just trying and even though maybe he shouldn’t have been on vacation and he shouldn’t have been $500 over budget, whatever. That is so much progress. From the beginning of the episode where he had no idea where his money was, he was like, I have no intention of being able to ever pay off 200K. That’s never going to happen. And I don’t really know. And he was kind of wandering in a whole bunch of, like, I don’t know and excuses, and I don’t know where he’s going to end up with all of it, but I do think that it’s good for people to see he’s still not making 100%. Like, maybe what Ramit wants him to do, which is sit in his house and start paying things off and whatever, not be so much himself. But he has made a lot of progress just by being aware. And if he stays aware, he will be able to make decisions that take him based on his value system, where he wants to go, versus just spinning around and thinking someone needs to save him from drowning. And so progress doesn’t always look like perfection. And I think that’s something that we as humans look on TikTok and Instagram or wherever and think is the only answer is, like, I’m only there once. I’m there in a perfect manner. Progress can kind of look like being on vacation, and at least, you know, you’re $500 over budget versus, like, I have no idea how much that vacation ever cost me.

Lynn Grogan [00:52:59]:

Amazing point. Amazing. Okay, Rachelle, what’s your last thought before we start wrapping up for the day?

Rachelle Siebke [00:53:06]:

I think it was really interesting when Frank said, I’m going to take this money to the grave with me, like, this debt to the grave with me. And we can see right. Even when he got the windfall because he was thinking, I’m never going to be able to pay this off. He didn’t even make a plan to pay off what he had, even though he won $150,000 and he was $200,000 in debt. Right. That was actually a really close scenario for him to be able to get out of that. But I think this is, to Shyloh’s point, like, a calm mind is a creative mind. So a mind that believes that it can pay off, make progress, will make progress, and a mind that believes, like, this is just an unsolvable problem will remain unsolved, no matter how miraculous the circumstances tend to be. And I just want to say, this whole idea of, like, I’m not good with money, I don’t do math I don’t trust myself with. Money is super common and I just put together a new opt in for this. So if you go to trust, there is some work you can do and dive in on that amazing.

Lynn Grogan [00:54:26]:

I will put that into the show notes along with your other details. And Shyloh, if somebody wanted to go and find you online, where would they go looking?

Shyloh Brown [00:54:35]:

So my instagram is Shyloh B coaching. My website is Shylohbcoaching.com so I have a funky name, so it’s Shyloh and then it’s B as in Brown coaching.com.

Lynn Grogan [00:54:47]:

Amazing. Well, thank you for coming on the show. Today show notes will be filled out with all these lovely links and well, thank you both for being here. It’s another amazing conversation about money.

Rachelle Siebke [00:55:02]:

So good.

Shyloh Brown [00:55:02]:

Thank you so much. Bye.