Ripping Roses with Chris Hale | The Bachelorette S20, E3

Chris Hale Life Coach

Brayden, Brayden, Brayden. So many red flags 🚩and yet so many red roses. 🥀

This week I invited Chris Hale on the show. Chris is a certified coach instructor, master dance educator, and host of the You Need a Coach Bitch Podcast.  Chris helps creatives own their authority and put their most unapologetic version of themselves and their work into the world.

It’s a super fun episode and I can’t wait for you to listen!

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Full Episode Transcript:


Lynn Grogan [00:00:00]:

Welcome to The Reality Show Life Coach podcast. The only podcast that brings on weekly guests to drop self help wisdom on the cast of popular reality shows like The Bachelor. I’m your host, Lynn Grogan. I am a certified life coach who helps people escape the status quo and live a fulfilling life on their own terms. Let’s go. Alright. Welcome back to the Reality Show Life Coach Podcast. Today, we’re gonna talk about season 20 episode 3 of The Bachelorette. And with me today, I have a special guest, Chris Hale. Chris, go ahead and introduce yourself.

Chris Hale [00:00:42]:

Hi. Oh my god. Thank you so much for having me. Yes. I am Chris Hale. I am a certified coach instructor. I’m a former dance educator, and I host a podcast called You Need a Coach B*tch. Yeah. I coach creatives on owning their authority so that they can put their most authentic work and selves out into the world. So it’s interesting. I love reality TV, but I have never been a, like, part like, a Bachelor or a Bachelorette franchise person. So This has been kind of exciting and interesting.

Lynn Grogan [00:01:24]:

Very. I — Yeah. — I was listening to your podcast, and you’re talking about the Ultimatum and about selling sunsets. And I was like, okay, those are on the list, and I will have you back because, you know, it changes things when you have a relationship with the show. Yeah. Totally.

Chris Hale [00:01:39]:

I actually kind of it was fun to, like, not have a relationship with the show. The only episode I’d ever seen was a friend of mine was on 1 like, ages ago. I think she was, like, kicked off the first episode. Well, I’m better for it. Yeah. Or maybe the second, but, like, Yeah. It was it was like, I watched that episode, and it was like, and she’s gone. But she’s gone on to do amazing things since then. Her name is Kelty, Kelty Knight. Mhmm. And she I think She worked for entertainment tonight. I don’t know what her current gig is, but she also has a podcast called The Lady Gang. and they have a book out. I mean, she just she’s awesome. Like, she was a Rockette. My husband danced with her growing up. And then she like she dated a couple of musicians, and so had written a book. She had a blog that was, like, really popular, and she wrote a book called rockstars, Rockettes, and rock bottom. Like yeah. I mean, she’s such she’s such a cool and interesting person. But, yeah, I was I think it was, like, one of those things kind of helped launch her career, which I think — Same. Yeah. I think that’s kind of that happens for a lot of people.

Lynn Grogan [00:02:58]:

I love that. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I can’t wait to talk about this. Before we get going, I wanna do something super nerdy. My mother-in-law, whose name is also Lynn, is, like, number one fan of the show right now. So can you give her a shout out? because she’s gonna watch us on YouTube because she watches us she watches us on YouTube. She doesn’t listen to the podcast. Well, Lynn, what’s up? I’m so excited to be here today. I hope that you enjoy this episode. I know she will. Oh my gosh. So we’re gonna do a show recap and chime in wherever because there’s some bits and bobs in this. I’m gonna go fast, but pause me. and then we’re gonna get to our coachable moments. Okay. Okay. Alright. So we start out the show. Charity comes in, and she’s all, like, apologetic. about everything that’s been going on, and then she says she can’t go on here in the mansion, and she’s gonna whisk them away. 2 hours 2 hours south to Oceanside, they’re excited probably because the mansion stinks at this point of man. So she’s going on a helicopter she announces with one of them. And it is Braden, of course. Obviously. And uh-huh. And then they have a bunch of the stuff which I know we’re gonna discuss from this date and other things with charity and Braden, but eventually she gives him the rose on this one on one. You know, it was funny. I just like I was like, oh, this is their first date. It feels like they have been dating for ages, and we’re like, girl get over this guy. But no. I mean, they’ve known each other for, like, 2 weeks, and this is their first date. Oh, that’s so interesting.

Chris Hale [00:04:29]:

Yeah. I don’t think I realized that. You know what? because I skipped episode 2. I watched episode 1, but then didn’t watch episode 2 them with the recap. I was like, oh my god. I need to go back.

Lynn Grogan [00:04:41]:

Yeah. It’s, like, been, like, 2 or 3 weeks. So — Yeah. He gets the rose. Then we have this group date with the theme, Ken, k e n, you feel the love tonight, which is Barbie themed. I really must know what you think of this date.

Chris Hale [00:04:56]:

I mean, a, I’m obsessed that it’s Barbie themed because I love all things Barbie. and I’m so stoked for the movie coming out. The date was hilarious. Like, the Ken costumes, I feel bad for them, actually, like, for the majority. What do you mean? Well, for some of them, their costumes were so bad. Like, the guy that had to be, like, naked Ken, Terrible. I mean, that just was not a good look for him. But, yeah, I thought it I love that they had to write a song. I love that they had to, like, be creative and, you know, some of them couldn’t sing, but they I felt like they gave it, like, their all.

Lynn Grogan [00:05:36]:

They totally gave it their all. And you know what? I’ve watched many seasons with the bachelor and bachelor of red. At this point, this is my favorite group date they’ve ever done. Really? Yes. because I just thought it was so fun, and they actually seemed like they were having fun playing dress up, which I don’t know. And, like, the costumes themselves, like, weren’t serious. Like, they’re very, like, glittery and — Yeah. — tight and weird. So — Tight and weird. Yeah. I think tight and weird is a good explanation.

Lynn Grogan [00:06:06]:

I don’t know. It was just there was something about it, and I just there was a few standouts in there. But I actually think that John who had to the nude suit or whatever you wanna call that, he seemed to be embracing it. Yeah. He went in. He he totally went in. Like, he was a good sport.

Chris Hale [00:06:20]:

I don’t know. I just it was like, oh my god. You poor guy. But you’re right. He was a total good sport about it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, sometimes I have them in, stripped down in Speedos. So this one, I was like, you actually got to wear clothes. Like — True. True. Yeah.

Lynn Grogan [00:06:34]:

They have their one on one time, Sean gets a little bit gloating, which we may or may not talk about. And then at the end of the day, we get Dalton gets the rose, and I I love him. I think he’s a great human, and I hope he sticks around for a while. And then we have this one on one date with Warwick.

Lynn Grogan [00:06:52]:

I have never seen anybody so Okay. Your face right now is the best.

Chris Hale [00:06:58]:

You have, like — It was — I can’t even look. It was oh, it was the cringiest thing. ever. Just oh my god. When he was like, yeah. Like, a music park makes me sleepy. Like, I was just She was such a trooper, though. Like, she was her I thought her questions were great. Like, she was trying so hard. and she was asking such great questions to but, like, she it was like she was pulling all the weight on that date. And He was just so not there.

Lynn Grogan [00:07:34]:

He was, like, a solentini. like, yep. Sure. Yeah. Like, his answers just were non answers. There were, like, 2 words.

Chris Hale [00:07:45]:

Yeah. Interesting selling. Yeah. Like, I to me, it’s like he just seems like someone who does not know himself at all, like, in any way. And so his answers, I felt, like, reflected that. Like, it’s like he’s never been asked to think about himself. in a, like — Yes. — a more curious and, like, introspective way. Like, it seems like it’s not his nature, and no one’s ever asked it of him. And so it felt like he was just really struggling to to have anything to say. You know?

Lynn Grogan [00:08:17]:

Oh, I think you’re onto something with that approach because he really did seem stumped. Like — Yeah. — very, like, oh, yeah. You’re right. Like, nobody had ever asked him What was their question? Like, you know, like, basically, what do you bring to her — Oh, yeah. What do you, yeah, what do you bring to a relationship? He’s like, I don’t know.

Chris Hale [00:08:36]:

Yes. And then she gave she gave an example of herself, like, that she’s, like, communicator, and he’s like, oh, yeah. I’m not good at communication. We’re like, obviously,

Lynn Grogan [00:08:46]:

I know. And when he said that, though, when he said that, I’m just, like, not a good and she’s like, but this is, like, her number one thing is communicating.

Lynn Grogan [00:08:54]:

And he’s just like, yeah. That’s that’s not my strong suit. Not at all.

Chris Hale [00:08:59]:

Yeah. And it’s so interesting. Like, if you’re there to try to, like, win this thing, Someone’s giving you, like, a clue, right, of, like, this is something that’s important to me. It’s like, hey. There was a total disconnect. Yeah. It’s like, what’s the purpose of that? You know what I mean? It’s so interesting.

Lynn Grogan [00:09:17]:

It is so interesting, and I’d love to give him the benefit of doubt. Like, it might be 1 AM, 2 AM at this time.

Chris Hale [00:09:25]:

I don’t know. I don’t know, though, because, like, the the impression that the other guys, like, when they that shot of them talking about him, and, like, nobody had anything to say about him. So it feels like it’s in line with his character, like, with who he is to sort of like, be a bit reticent and sort of removed and shy. But, like, you’re on a date. Like, It’s time to bring whatever you gotta bring. Yes. Everyone’s got something to bring. He brought nothing.

Lynn Grogan [00:09:57]:

Like, even just rambling where everybody’s like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. But, no, he was just like, oh, my turn to talk? Oh, gosh. Oh god. I wonder what I say. Like, poor guy. I hope he has answers for those questions now. Like, watching it back, I hope he’s just like, oh, this is what I would have said, which most of us would do after that. We’d be like, oh, I just choked. But this is what I would have said, and I don’t even know. So he does not get the rose shockingly. You know? And this is one of those moments where it’s it’s interesting because you see that it’s one on one date side by side, and Braden does get the rose, and he does not. And she’s obviously decisive when she has no emotions towards somebody. Yeah. So she decisively did not give him the rose. Nobody is surprised. And then we have the rose ceremony at the end. She is cutting. Like, this is very fast. for her to be cutting people because she went from 25 down to 10 in week 3. Like, I don’t know what’s about to happen or how long the show is gonna run. I think through the end of August, but we’ll see because with just ten men remaining, like, that’s a lot of screen time for very few people, and not all of them she seems into.

Chris Hale [00:11:06]:

So is that, like, not a normal like, how many are they normally down to at this point?

Lynn Grogan [00:11:13]:

At this point – 16. So she’s, like, cut, cut, cut, or, obviously, producers are, like, no. Cut, cut, cut. But she sent home Erin S James and Adrian and, of course, Warwick. So — Right.

Chris Hale [00:11:26]:

Wild. I was not feeling Aaron S. his energy that this whole episode was so aggressive and, like, angry. I — Yes. Yeah. It was not, like,

Lynn Grogan [00:11:36]:

Not a good look. — that comment about, like, what a real man is? And it was like — Yeah. — somebody who, what, wind surfs in the hunt? Or I don’t know. I was like, this is I’m like, why do we only get 2 options? And, like, the 2 options are weird. It was like, oh, he’s giving her the country club option, but I could give her the hunting fishing windsurfing option. It was very strange.

Chris Hale [00:11:58]:

It was very strange. I think I, like wrote: Aaron S: toxic masculinity. Like, there was just, like, Like, it was just and and it wasn’t even just a deck. That was, like, probably the worst part of it, but it was just, like, the way he was thinking about everything in the way. He was, like, so mad in in a way that’s like I understand, like, this is going back to, I guess, Sean, right, with the date.

Lynn Grogan [00:12:21]:

Yeah. So we jump into coachable moments. I feel like we’re ready to rip. We’re just like — Let her sit. Let’s go. I was like, okay. I’m gonna mark this moment of time. Like, okay. Continue on.

Chris Hale [00:12:32]:

Yeah. Well, it’s just like, you know, what he did was I was not cool, but, like, And I understand having feelings about it, but, like, he was so aggressively mad that it’s just, like, it felt inappropriate. Like, you could express your feelings in a different way. Like, I feel like some of the other ones I can’t remember who it was, but he was expressing his feelings about it. Like, yeah. That wasn’t cool. Like, he took time from the rest of us. Like, it was just more measured. Right? Like,

Lynn Grogan [00:13:01]:

In terms of — That might have been daunting, but you’re totally right because Erin S is just like I feel like there’s it’s almost like a divide in the house. Like, some of the men feel like they have to make sense of things by attacking other people. And other people are just like, yeah, other people are doing things, but I’m here to do my thing, and my thing is to pursue charity. so.

Chris Hale [00:13:22]:

Oh, yeah. Well, that actually, I think, kind of brings us to, like, the motivations. Right? Like, everyone right? Because it’s, like, what are people’s motivations. We don’t really know exactly what everyone’s motivation is. And I think that, like, yeah, some of them are more focused on her. and, like, doing what they need to do and other ones are are more focused on, like, the scarcity aspect of it or what they’re not gonna get to do or what they’re not gonna get out of it.

Lynn Grogan [00:13:54]:

Yeah. Well, is there anybody in particular you wanted to talk about their motivations and your take on it?

Lynn Grogan [00:14:02]:

Anyone? Anyone in particular?

Chris Hale [00:14:04]:

I think well, it’s like Aaron B and Brayden both. It’s like that’s the like, both of them, I think. speaking about both of their motivations.

Lynn Grogan [00:14:13]:

Yeah. I think I don’t know. Who which one should we start with? Let’s start I mean, Brayden’s the obvious pick just because he was the first date and — Yeah. — I mean, it’s weird when, like, so many episodes just center around one person, and it’s not the lead. It feels like it’s very centered around break it in, at least this Like, the thread throughout all of them seems to be him.

Chris Hale [00:14:33]:

Yeah. Well, it’s it was I thought he was a weird pick, honestly, in the first. the first episode. Like, I didn’t expect that, like, that. Yeah. I don’t know why. It was just it it came out of it was surprising. for me. And so to to me, it felt it felt weird that, like, he has been such the center of everything, but I guess she was she’s really into him. I know, like, previous, we were kind of talking about, like, his his sharing. Right? His sharing on the date about like, his his breakup and his his, like, fears and trepidation. And I don’t know. Like, On one hand, I think, like, he is being honest. And then then you kind of was saying that maybe he’s being manipulative, and it’s like, aren’t they all kind of being manipulative? Yeah. Isn’t like, that feels like that’s what’s so hard to to kind of suss out about motivations because it feels like — Yeah. — it’s hard to tell Again, like, who who’s there because they are actually looking for a partner, who’s there because they just wanna win. Mhmm. Right? And who’s there? Because

Lynn Grogan [00:15:51]:

it gives them access to the public in a way that’s gonna benefit them. Yeah. Like, what you were talking about before with your friend. Yeah. Like — Yeah. — of course. Of course. Yeah. I think and this is where I get because I was watching the episode back today. I’m like, what is it about Braden? And, obviously, some of this is coming out in the editing. Some of it’s coming out with all the other people in the house narrating what they think is happening, and, obviously, that’s coloring our opinion. But there’s something about his approach where it’s hard for me just to see it at face value. Like, oh, here’s somebody that’s trying to be honest about, like yeah. Of course. Like, it is a little bit farfetched. for, you know, somebody especially like, I think he’s 24, not to say somebody’s not ready to get married or be in a serious relationship at 24, but I certainly wasn’t at that point But, I mean, I think he’s, like, speaking honestly about his experience of, like, I don’t know if I could get married at the end of this. Yeah. I don’t know how I feel about dating somebody who’s dating this many other people openly. I know there’s still something that, like, sits off for me about his approach to this.

Chris Hale [00:16:57]:

Is it the questioning of it, or is it the way that he’s presenting it?

Lynn Grogan [00:17:03]:

I feel like it’s a little bit I feel like he’s trying to and he even says this at one point, like, shape charities expectations of him. Like, I feel like it’s almost controlling. — say that. You’re right.

Chris Hale [00:17:18]:

Yeah. Yeah. And that that was a little bit of, like, a but that, yeah, that felt a little, like, people pleasing, a little, like, you know, I want I’m, yeah, I’m trying to control how how she thinks about me. But, again, they’re all trying to do that. Like, Erin B is, like, literally, doing that. I’m here to protect. I feel like I need to like, you’re not you don’t need to protect her. Right.

Lynn Grogan [00:17:46]:

Right. Well and I yeah. And maybe this is where on the one hand, I see exactly what Braden’s saying. But he is painted to be this bit of a villain, so there’s a part of me that wants to jump on that bandwagon and just be like, is what he’s doing wrong or right, and maybe we don’t need to decide, and maybe maybe we don’t have to decide if it’s right or wrong.

Chris Hale [00:18:05]:

Yeah. I don’t think we have to decide if it’s right or wrong. I mean, I think, like, the the coachable moments in there are, like, like, individually like, for all of them individually. It’s like, Braden, his coachable moment is, like, it’s not your responsibility to try to control someone else’s emotions. Right? So, like, what is real for like, tell her what’s real for you, but, like and and let her decide, you know, instead of trying to, like, well, I just want you to know, like, I don’t know if I’m ready for this. Like, but what, like, what is real? You know? It’s like, is are you really not ready for it, or are you still on the fence? or are you in in for this, but it’s like he’s not committing. He’s like, yeah. Yeah. I really wanna be here, but I don’t know. So he’s not really committing to either either side. And it’s okay to be confused, but then say I’m confused and let it lie, and then she gets to decide what she wants to do with that. And I think you’re right in there. It ends up feeling a little manipulative because he won’t just let her have her feelings and her experience because he’s trying to get in there. Mhmm. Yeah. No. I think you’re right. There is

Lynn Grogan [00:19:22]:

There’s a way to do it where you’re taking personal responsibility and just being like, this is where I’m at. Yes. But I think where it gets blurry is when he’s like, but I’m really trying. And I’m here for you, and I’m trying. And I stayed in all of this. Yeah. That’s the part that feels super graspy. That’s the part that seems like he is trying to make her think a certain way of him that he’s more ready than he actually is. Because if we just put it down on paper, he is not ready. No. You’re so right. He’s not ready. And like — Yeah. — it’s okay. It’s totally okay. And, yeah, I think it’s, like, all around personal responsibility there for him. What would you say is, like, charity is coachable woman here.

Chris Hale [00:20:05]:

I mean, I feel like her biggest coachable moment came at the end with her personal drama around whether or not was gonna keep Braden because she was sort of in this confusion of, like, I don’t know how I’m gonna feel like, if I let him go, and I don’t know if I’m gonna be okay if he stays. And it’s like, well, you get to decide to be okay. either way and have your own back around it. So I think that that almost is kind of an overarching lesson for her, I think, with all of this because she’s still very much in the space with all of them where she’s giving them the power to help her decide how she feels. Oh,

Lynn Grogan [00:20:56]:

Yeah. Yeah. She is because it’s, like, this hyper vigilance whenever she’s in these group dates of, like, tell me how to feel about you. Tell me how to feel about the other people here. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Hale [00:21:11]:

So I feel like that’s kind of her and I I It’s like I saw it throughout, like, on her date with Dalton, and she was like, you know, no one’s ever spoken to me about myself like this before, and it’s very it’s very much this, like, she is looking for them to, I don’t know, validate, approve — Mhmm. — some signal from them that they’re the 1 or whatever instead of, like, trusting herself. like, like, letting them be their face value, you know, and then, like, trusting herself. And then it came up in the end when she’s like, well, I don’t I don’t know how I’m gonna feel. It’s like, well, you like, what we teach our clients is, like, you make a decision, and then you have your own back around it. Yeah. You know? So you let him go, And if you feel bad about it, that’s fine, but, like, have your own back around it.

Lynn Grogan [00:22:03]:

Yeah. Well and I was I was thinking about this because I was reading your notes ahead of time. I was thinking about this in context like I was listening to your podcast where you’re talking talking to Deb Mulk and about like, not rushing. Like, if you’re having a moment — Mhmm. — and, like, you’re in the thick of it. It’s so like, you don’t need to rush out of that. You could have the luck — of just being in your stuff. Yeah. And her decision around this could totally be, I’m also confused. I also don’t know But you’re not it’s not your job, Erin B. It’s not your job other men in the house to tell me that this guy needs to go because those red flags If I’m not sure, I’m gonna make my own personal decision and have my own back about keeping him even if you don’t like it. And you say that says something about my character, F u. Like, screw you.

Chris Hale [00:22:54]:

Yeah. It’s really interesting to watch her go back and forth between between being very sure of herself, you know, and, like, knowing who she is and what she wants and then deferring to other people, like, for instance, Erin B, where They’d already had the conversation. She and Braden had already had the conversation. He was already honest with her. Like, why why would it be a problem that he’s also say it’s that’s actually consistent.

Lynn Grogan [00:23:22]:


Chris Hale [00:23:23]:

Right? If — He was yeah. But, yeah, like, it’s consistent behavior for him to to her face. Say, I don’t know how I feel about these things. And then in the house to say the same thing to the other guys, that’s actually consistent behavior. So I don’t know why that would be a problem. that, like — Yeah. You know what I mean? And so but then she’s, like, looking to Erin me, who’s like, I just have to take care of you. And she’s like, you know, he’s saying this, and it’s just worrying me. And it’s like you got this was this was solved already. This is not new news. Not new news.

Lynn Grogan [00:23:57]:

Yeah. And I think This could have been a nonissue for her. She could have just been like, thank you for letting me know. Great. And it this is the part where I’m like, what part of you is latching on to this? Mhmm. because this isn’t this isn’t like, you know, feeding your inner knowing about the situation. This is that part of you that is doubting. This is the part of you that is scared. This is the part of you that wants to hear these things. Says you don’t want to outwardly, but you kinda do. Like, she’s she’s finding it.

Chris Hale [00:24:30]:

Yeah. Like, why do you think she let that impact her so greatly?

Lynn Grogan [00:24:36]:

I feel like there’s more to the story in this, and there always is. But I I wondering if there is somewhat of a fear where, like, some of these men are more expressive with their emotions and others, and Braden is at the forefront of this. Then she knows how he feels sort of. But then you have other people, like, where she had just sent home work. there might be this concern that, like, what if there isn’t what if other people feel the same way as work where he couldn’t give a damn about even making oppression on me? Like, what if I don’t know. Like, it’s almost like that scarcity and fear of, like, oh gosh. Now I have to grasp a little bit more. Or I don’t know. What do you think it is? Like —

Chris Hale [00:25:18]:

Yeah. I don’t I don’t know because that I didn’t even think about Like, I mean, I was thinking about it in in the sense that, like, it was already settled. But when you said, like, this could have been a non issue, like, I for some reason, that, like, clicked in my brain in a different way that I’m like, yeah. This it could have been a nonissue, and she made it an issue. And I was blaming Aaron B, but, like, it’s not his like, I mean, he was being a dick. Like, let’s be honest. Like, that was self serving Yes. Like, it was not about protecting her. His motivation was all about him, and still, she could have made the decision. to not make it a problem. And so, yeah, it’s, like, what I don’t know. Has she had sort of a a history of, like, creating drama where there isn’t drama?

Lynn Grogan [00:26:11]:

Not at this point in the show. And even, like, you know, they carry over people from other seasons. She wasn’t want somebody that created drama before. I don’t know. It’s interesting in length. Maybe this is something that, you know, you’ve noticed for yourself a crossroads, but I noticed for myself, it’s always this crossroads of I could create about this. Let’s stuff in my personal life, or I could make it a not an issue. And it’s almost like she isn’t seeing, like, oh, I have options here. It’s just this information’s presented, and, of course, it’s an issue. It’s like she hasn’t She’s a very aware person, like, in my opinion. Yeah. So there’s something about this in particular where she doesn’t see that she gets an option of whether or not to make this an issue and blow it up. Mhmm. Mhmm.

Chris Hale [00:26:59]:

Yeah. It’s, like, that question, why is this a problem? Mhmm. And — Yeah. — that’s not coming up for her. It’s just It was just taken at, like and, like, at face value and maybe even feeding up. This is where I think, like, It’s interesting sometimes she’s not grounded in herself because she allowed his energy to influence where she was at. instead of, like, holding strong in her own self. Yes.

Lynn Grogan [00:27:30]:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s where and I I do wonder if it’s, like, mattered who it came from. Like, this is somebody this is the guy she went on her first one on one date with. had a Yeah. She said I trust him. Like, I really trust him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so when you’re in a situation where you lack people to trust and you’re not sure who to trust. I mean, maybe she just was like, I should listen to this because this is coming from a respected source versus Somebody in the house who I’m about to kick off the show anyway who might be doing, like, a bit quick grab, attention grab to this day.

Chris Hale [00:28:07]:

Yeah. That’s so interesting because, like, I we really do have to consider the context, which Like, I don’t think I was thinking about it all. You know? Like, that those dynamics, and I can’t imagine what it would be like to be in a situation like that where You don’t know any of these people, and you very quickly not because you have to because I think this goes back to what you were talking about before is, like, give yourself the luxury of time, right, of, like, sitting with something and allowing yourself to, like, listen to your body and see how your body is reacting and responding to people. But, like, from, like, a primitive perspective, it’s, like, I need to figure out who in this space is trustworthy. It’s almost like survivor. It really feels almost like that. It really is Like, what are the alliances? Who can I trust here? It just we don’t see it that way because it’s not life or death or whatever is going on in a survivor. But it seems like a Tigers in the room. Totally. And so, yeah, it would make sense that she would weigh his opinion more heavily especially if she’s a little freaked out by what’s going on with Braden, which I do wanna talk about because

Lynn Grogan [00:29:26]:

Yeah. Let’s do. She

Chris Hale [00:29:28]:

on one hand, is saying I want honesty. But then when he’s being honest, it’s freaking her out because it’s not exactly what she wants to hear. Right? She wants to hear that he’s all in. Right. Like, that’s really what she wants to hear, and she’s not hearing that. And so then she’s, like, freaked out. But, like, he’s giving you what you want. Like, you want open communication. You want someone who, like and this is where it’s I don’t know if this is, like, I don’t know. This is an interesting thing with, like, talking about the emotional intelligence of the guys. Like, because I think a lot of times, we can’t handle, like, pushing against the programming that, like, men should not show their feelings. You know? And so I think, like, when you’re in that sit when like, she could be in this situation where it’s, like, intellectually, she wants it. But then when in actually there in front of her being really honest and open about his feelings. She’s like, woah. Wait. Wait. Like, especially if it’s not what she wants to hear, and then it Andy’s being emotional. I don’t know. What do you think about that?

Lynn Grogan [00:30:42]:

No. I a 100% agree with you. Like, she’s coming with her own agenda. I wanna hear that you’re here for me, and I need it I need your emotional investment to match mine, which is we’re excited about each other. We have chemistry. And out in the real world, she’d probably be like, yeah. Okay. Let’s go on 3 or 4 dates and see how it goes. Let’s see if we’re both ready for marriage and kids and all that jazz or whatever. I mean, which is which she has expressed coming on the show that she wants. But when they come into the situation and, yes, he says something different than that, she’s like, well, this does fit into my box. Like, I don’t know how to what sense to make out of this, and and then she’s getting the feedback. Like, hey. You should probably let him go. Mhmm. Because he doesn’t want the things you’ve expressed that you wanted, but there’s that part of her that’s like, no. But I’m still trying to make him fit into my box. I’m still, like, trying to hear what I wanna hear even if he’s not saying what I wanna hear. But you’re absolutely right. Like, she has said she wants honest It’s just that she’s not listening with an honest ear to hear what he’s actually saying.

Chris Hale [00:31:45]:

Oh, I love that. She’s not listening with an honest ear. How often do we all do that?

Lynn Grogan [00:31:53]:

All day, every day. I mean, that’s why coaching so how small.

Chris Hale [00:31:57]:

It really is. Like, to be able to and and that I think that would be the the thing to point out to her, right, in a session. would be like, okay. Like, these are the words that he’s saying, and what are you making them mean? And why aren’t you hearing them for exactly what they are. You know? And because I I think you’re right. I think she’s making meaning out of them or or having a hard time digesting them because they’re not in alignment with what she wants to hear. And so there’s a there’s a story going on there somewhere that we’d have to uncover of. Like, okay. What’s under what’s under this?

Lynn Grogan [00:32:36]:

Yeah. I agree too. And, like, I don’t know. One thing in a coaching session I might do is do, like, a compare and contrast. Like, what’s the difference between war and Braden. With work, it was very easy for you to make a decision, what you wanted to do. You know, he’s saying things that don’t line up with what you want We’re also seeing that with Braden. He’s also seeing things that don’t line up, so what’s the difference? And she might be able to be like, oh, it’s the emotional piece. Like, it’s — Right. there there’s some part of me that’s driving this forward even though he’s putting on the brakes over and over and over again. Like, it might help to see that contrast. I know it helps me in both as a coach and as a client when I can see the 2 next to each other and do a compare and contrast me like, oh, okay. That’s interesting that the circumstances are very similar here. but yet my response is different.

Chris Hale [00:33:22]:

Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I think that’s so important because We don’t see it, right, when we’re inside of it. Like, we need someone to kind of point out that, like, we’ve got we’ve got similar situations because they don’t seem similar. Yeah. In our brains. Right? In our brains. Yeah. — don’t see that, like, oh, these two people are exhibiting behaviors that are kind of similar. and yet you’re having a different response to them. And so what is it? Is like, what are you thinking about each them? How are you feeling? Yes. What are you paying attention to? What are you not paying attention to?

Lynn Grogan [00:34:02]:

Oh, all of those things. because, I mean, she went into both dates with the very different mindset. With Braden, she was like, I need to see what the truth is behind this guy versus, oh, let’s get open and curious. We’ve only known each couple weeks. Let’s see if we still have a lot in common. Versus with Warwick, she was like, he’s cute. I don’t know him by a lot about him. Let’s go find out. And if she had approached both with that mindset of, like, hey. Let’s just go find out.

Chris Hale [00:34:26]:

It would have spend it right. I think she said something at one point of, like, I wanna I wanna trust the chemistry that we have. right, about about Braden. Like like, we have fun together, and I wanna trust the chemistry that we have. So, yeah, she totally went in with an agenda. Like, for sure, Oh, a 100%. But she didn’t have. Right? Like, she wasn’t being curious. She, like, wants that Like, she wants to be able to, like, trust herself. Yeah. But I feel like in that in doing that, she’s not allow it. She’s not really allowing herself to hear herself or feel herself so she can trust herself. It’s like it’s like she’s doing the opposite.

Lynn Grogan [00:35:06]:

She is yeah. Totally. Well, and I I do wonder to what extent have you already painted the picture of you you too on the altar at the end. Mhmm. Or as one of the people at the because then it’s like and then it’s hard to, like, erase that after you’ve drawn a nice picture of the two of you in a house together — Yeah. — because she’s trying to get it to fit some sort of narrative that she seems to have already created around it.

Chris Hale [00:35:28]:

Oh, that’s so good. That is so good. I feel like so many people need to hear that. Mhmm. You know? Like, what are you trying to It’s like you’re trying to force something because you’ve already decided how you want it to end, and so you just you can’t take in any information that’s contrary to that, but then you’re not really basing your decision on all of the facts because — Right. — you’re not letting them in.

Lynn Grogan [00:36:05]:

Yeah. And I think that’s why she got so like, upset after she had that conversation with Airbnb because she’s like, this is not a part of the narrative. This was supposed to be our private conversations that we had about your self doubt, and it bothers me that you’re telling this to other people because this is supposed to be us. And you weren’t supposed to tell them All of these other things. Like, I feel like that’s the part she’s mad about it. She’s like, why are you going around telling people that you don’t wanna date a woman that dates 20 other men? Like, that was us.

Chris Hale [00:36:35]:

Yeah. I never thought about it like that.

Lynn Grogan [00:36:39]:

It’s it’s I was trying to decide what she’s mad about. And it’s not like because everything is out in the open. He’s already said all the things. What does she actually mad about. — actually mad about? Yeah. Like and that you’re right. because, like, that’s like,

Chris Hale [00:36:53]:

he she knows it. It’s consistent behavior from him. And, yeah, maybe that feels like, a betrayal in some way, like, of the confidence that they shared or, like, Maybe she’s upset that he’s o I don’t know why she would be upset that he’s open with other people. That doesn’t

Lynn Grogan [00:37:13]:

I don’t know. Yeah. If anything, it just proves that he’s open with people. Right. Like, oh, I want an honest communicative person. And, look, here’s more like, so funny because she can look for evidence.

Speaker C [00:37:23]:

Right. Right. It’s like you could find evidence of this one thing that you want, but yet you find evidence of why it’s not gonna work out, and that’s kinda where her brain is at. Yeah. That’s that’s totally true.

Lynn Grogan [00:37:34]:

Oh my gosh. Any other thoughts on this, like, rate and charity thing?

Chris Hale [00:37:41]:

You know, I It’s so funny because I found myself so like, I think it was because because of how it happened. If she had decided to not keep him. Like like, if Aaron hadn’t gotten in there, And she had decided to not keep him. I would have been 100% fine with that. Yes. Like, I would have been totally fine with it. Because what it felt like she was making that decision, like, from an internal locus of control, and it would have felt empowered. You know? But I found myself being so riled up and mad. it was like, is she gonna keep it? Is she not gonna keep it? I’m like, fuck, Erin. Like, I was so mad about it. And I don’t know what like, I don’t know why. Like, I don’t it’s like, I’ve I never get that riled up about these kinds of things with shows. Like, I get, like, you know, a little bit mad, but, like, this I was, like, pacing my living room. Like, are you kidding me? Is she really not gonna keep him? Like, Like, I was so mad about it.

Lynn Grogan [00:38:51]:

Yeah. because she’d already made the decision to give them the rose. Yeah. And I really don’t think that was manufactured by the producers. I really think that she was like, oh, now I’m second guessing because I should be because somebody told me I should be second guessing this. And I think too because it’s, like, I, like, I did feel bad for the other guys because this is, like,

Chris Hale [00:39:10]:

time that’s being wasted on a thing that was already decided And, like, you’re not you you’re telling me you’re not thinking about the way that this is gonna impact the evening. you know, like and and everyone else’s opportunity to, like, have like, make an impression on her. I I mean, I just thought it was so selfish. And and I was like, the producers cannot it to really not let her send them like, him home. Like, I just I had, like, convince myself that, like, this was dramatic enough and, like, good enough TV that, like, the producers would be like, no. He can’t leave. Like, because I was like, this is I couldn’t stay I just couldn’t stand the idea that, like, that he would have been sent home for that. I don’t know why. It was just it was maddening to me. Yeah. if it’s matting, there’s just so many different angles. And usually

Lynn Grogan [00:40:02]:

usually, when I watch this, I’m like, oh, this is very cut and dry. This is storyline. This is this. And I was like, I kept going back and forth and back and forth. I’m like, what does this all mean? Mhmm. But it’s not clean. Like and that’s I mean and maybe it’s not supposed to be when looking for love.

Chris Hale [00:40:19]:

No. I I don’t think it is. It never never is. And we want it to be, like, neat and tidy. Mhmm. And I think this is a really good example of, like, how it’s not neat and tidy. I just the other thing is, like, it’s so wild to me, like, this many dates and this much like I feel like it gets really intimate really quickly. I was, like, I was a lit taken aback by, like, how much, like, kissing was going on. I’m, like, There must be some level of implied consent here because it feels so or maybe it’s just the way it’s edited, but it just feels so quick. that, like, that it’s all of a sudden. She’s, like, making out with a guy that, like, she doesn’t know at all. Or, like, Sean, like, grabbing her — Yeah. — during the lip synch and kissing her. Like, in the in the in front of everyone, there was a kiss of palsy and, like, woah. don’t know. That’s a that’s an aspect of the show that I think was, like, a little bit, like I don’t know. It, like, was — Yeah. — not off putting, but, just kinda made me go like, oh, this is so weird. Like — It’s jarring, isn’t it? Yeah. It was jarring. It was jarring. Is it is it always like that?

Lynn Grogan [00:41:34]:

It is. And that’s the part where I’m like, what is happening here? But, yeah, it’s it’s They they have all these rules that totally exist in the bachelor world, and it is just like the lead is probably gonna kiss all of you at some point unless they really don’t like you. Yeah. And if somebody it’s almost like, if somebody tells you a little bit of drama, you have to follow the lead even if you think it’s a non issue. Like, I I don’t know. There’s, like, so many different types of words, ways of saying things I have to do, and it’s like they’re almost expected to, like, just fall in line.

Chris Hale [00:42:10]:

Yeah. The other thing it makes me think about too is, like, in terms of if we go back to, like, what are we trusting in terms of what we’re experiencing, Like, if you are you’re all in this, like, house. You’re away from all other people. Right? Like, It’s, like, all these guys and one girl. She’s going on all these dates. Like, what what is the feeling we’re really having here? Like, it seems a little lessy. Not right? Right? Like, not, like, secure and, like, interest and curious. And, like, all those things at the beginning, like, right where you’d have time to kind of create connection and create, like, trust and respect. where you actually get to know a person — Yeah. — for real get to know them because, like, you can have chemistry with anybody. Yeah. Yeah. So what are like, you know, I think that’s why it also becomes really confusing because it’s like, well, yeah, I could kiss a lot of guys and feel really good about it. Right. But, like, I don’t doesn’t necessarily mean I wanna marry any of them. Right.

Lynn Grogan [00:43:20]:

Yes. A 100%. Yes. That’s I mean, it’s been I I don’t know. When I start first started watching this show, I’m like, what is happening here? Oh my gosh. I could talk to you all day about this. was like, okay. Definitely wanna bring you on for one of the shows that you’re like, and I have a lot of thoughts about these other shows. If somebody wanted to find you online, where would they go looking?

Chris Hale [00:43:44]:

You can find me on Instagram. My handle is the only Chris Hale, or my website is the only Chris, and you can listen to my podcast wherever you find podcasts.

Lynn Grogan [00:43:57]:

Yes. And say the name again because it’s the best name of the podcast ever. You need a coach, bitch. And it is so good. I love it. I have I’m a new listener, but not a regular listener because I was like, I have to know more about your life. Well, thank you, Chris, so much for coming on the show today. It’s been such a delight to get to know you and to hear your take on All things bachelor of it. Thank you for having me.

Lynn Grogan [00:44:22]:

Thanks for listening. This podcast is produced by Josh Jones, Our theme music is by David Delaney of The Whiskey Boys. You can find him at or click the link in the show notes. If you’d like what you’ve heard today, share this podcast with a friend.

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Lynn Grogan host of the Reality Show Life Coach podcast

Meet your host

Hi! I’m Lynn Grogan. It’s my passion as a life coach to help you escape the status quo and live a fulfilling life on your own terms!

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